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“If we are all in agreement on the decision – then I propose we postpone further discussion of this matter until our next meeting to give ourselves time to develop disagreement and perhaps gain some understanding of what the decision is all about.” Alfred P. Sloan
In recent podcasts, I’ve stressed the value of going along with your conversational partner in order to achieve an agreeable, smooth flow. But in this podcast, I am going to take the opposite side of that argument—to disagree with myself, essentially.
That’s because disagreements are not only inevitable but can be extremely valuable to produce best thinking and results. Unfortunately, most people are uncomfortable with it. As Margaret Heffernan says, 85% of executives admitted that they had issues at work that they were afraid to raise.
So, there are clearly advantages to daring to disagree—but you can also be smart about it. In this podcasts I explain the risks of being too agreeable, the benefits of challenging others’ thinking, and some approaches to use to ensure that you can be constructive in your disagreement while preserving relationships as well.
Risks of the “accepting” approach
- Taking a bad idea too far
- Leaving important things unsaid
- Focusing too much on “being nice” can distract from thinking about the issue
- Lack of clarity
Benefits of constructive disagreement
- More clarity and less risk of misunderstanding
- Speaking up may encourage others to do the same
- Great way to pressure-test your ideas and conviction
- Encourage diversity of thought
How to engage in constructive disagreement
- Don’t make it personal
- Keep the big picture in mind
- Have an open mind and be open to persuasion
- Use your imagination to find a third way that satisfies both parties
In the end, honest disagreement can be one of the highest signs of respect that you can offer to someone, because it treats them as an intelligent person who is willing to listen to reason and cares for a greater good than pure self-interest.
If you disagree with anything Isay in this podcast, please pay me the respect of letting me know.
See also: When Is It Your Duty to Disagree?
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Today’s topic is creative conversations. Have you ever had a conversation with someone that just clicked? But more than that, the clicking produced a solution to a problem or a creative idea?
Today’s topic is actually a bit out of sync with the premise of Practical Eloquence, because it’s not about persuasive conversations. Persuasion is wonderful, of course, but today I want to go beyond it to talk about creation—creation of new ideas, new solutions to a problem, through a meeting of two or more minds.
Think of a creative dialogues as assisted thinking; your goal is not to win, or to impress someone, or even to persuade, but to work together to produce a positive result.
There’s a story in Stan McChrystal’s new book, Leaders: Myth and Reality, that’s a great example of what I’m talking about. In 1905 there was a young bureaucrat wrestling with a difficult problem, and he decided to talk it out with his good friend. As he wrote later,
“I started the conversation with him in the following way: ‘Recently I have been working on a difficult problem. Today I came to do battle against that problem with you.’ We discussed every aspect of this problem. Then suddenly I understood where the key to this problem lay. Next day I came back to him again and said to him, without even saying hello, ‘Thank you. I’ve completely solved the problem.’ An analysis of the concept of time was my solution.”
You probably figured out by now that the young bureaucrat was Albert Einstein. Would he have figured out the problem without a creative conversation? Probably, but it was the conversation that provided the actual spark.
I love that phrase: “I came to do battle against that problem with you.” That’s the true essence of a creative conversation, one where both sides are united in a common goal or against a common problem. They’re not on opposite sides of an issue. The issue does not have two sides; it’s a circle with an infinite number of possible perspectives to view it from, and the conversational dance allows the freedom to view it from any perspective. There is no one right, and no one who has the full answer, but working together you achieve it.
In fact, the dia- in the word dialogue doesn’t mean two, it means through. And –logue means meaning. When you combine these two ideas you get “thinking together”.
A creative conversation is one that results in new ideas, and new action. A creative conversation is, stimulating, cumulative, synergistic, and catalytic.
Stimulating
A conversation that stimulates your thinking, one that stimulates new ideas, whether in your own mind or in the mind of the person you’re speaking with, or better still, in both minds at the same time. It’s a conversation where each side feels challenged mentally but not personally;
Cumulative
They build toward something, with each contribution supporting a general direction, even if you don’t know in advance what that direction is. Many conversations are aimless because when someone says something, the other person either negates it or neutralizes it.
Synergistic
I hate to use buzzwords, but these are synergistic conversations, because something emerges that is greater than the sum of individual contributions. It’s like each side has some pieces of the puzzle, but the conversation itself actually creates other missing pieces that were not there to begin with, and never would have come out except for the interplay of meaning between both minds… Where both sides learn something,
Catalytic
These conversations are also catalytic, because they can spur action and movement. How many times have you had a half-baked urge in your mind that only became a firm resolution to act because you had a chance to “bounce it off” someone else? Perhaps they asked the question that gave you the clarity to act, or encouragement, or a suggestion you had not thought of before?
What do these conversations sound like and feel like?
Let me ask you a question: when two people dance, how do you figure out who won? Of course it’s a dumb question, because dancing is not about winning, and that’s exactly the metaphor that applies to this type of conversation, except that this form of dance is not choreographed in advance, but arises naturally through a sincere exchange of ideas and perspectives.
These types of conversations flow naturally, with very few pauses and no awkward silences. Where you’re almost finishing each other’s sentences—not in a start-stop interrupting way, but in a way that builds off of whatever the other just said, and they do the same with you. It’s a conversation where no one is keeping score, but in the end there is a balance of contribution that feels just right, as if each person (and by the way, it can be multiple people—not just two) got more out of the conversation than they put in.
It’s the type of conversation where you can easily be surprised—not only by what the other person says, but even by the words that come out of your own mouth…And just as a quick note to reinforce what I just said: there’s a common misperception that you can’t learn while you’re talking. BS. I do it all the time. A lot of times, I don’t know what I truly think until I express it out loud, and I don’t think I’m unique in this respect.
Finally, you feel challenged but in control at the same time. You get a sense of flow because you’re at the sweet spot between challenge and ability…
How do you have creative conversations?
I’m not sure it’s possible to force a creative conversation, although Einstein clearly had that intent in mind when he set up his talk with his friend. But you can at least set up the conditions so that they are more likely to happen, ensure that you have some necessary ingredients, and at the same time leave out some ingredients that can kill conversations.
Plan ahead. You need to have some intent or even an actual agenda for the conversation so that it doesn’t just wander off into any direction.
Be curious. Curiosity is all about what I’ve talked about before, about outside-in thinking.
Be prepared to be wrong. Or to put that sentiment more positively, be prepared to learn something, and don’t take it personally when the other perspective makes more sense than yours. This takes respect and the belief that you can learn from the other person, that their contribution is worthwhile and helpful.
Listen. This goes without saying, and if the conversation is really flowing, you certainly won’t need a reminder. But if it starts to go off track, take stock of your own listening posture and effort and adjust as necessary.
Say “yes, and”. You can use ideas from the world of comedy improv. In improv, one person opens with a statement, and the other person builds off of it. The statement is called an “offer” and the key rule is to use a technique called “yes, and…”. According to leadership consultant Elizabeth Doty, “Yes means agreeing with your partner’s premise, whatever it is; and means building on what he or she has offered.”
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This is the fourth podcast in a series on how to use questions to help you persuade. In this one, however, I urge you to go beyond questions to produce a persuasive conversation that flows.
The Art of NOT Asking Questions
The most efficient and effective sales call I ever conducted took place in a boardroom in Atlanta where I met with the SVP of Worldwide Sales and several of his direct reports. I had barely set the stage with my value proposition when he cut me off: “Let me tell you what I want”, he said, and launched into a 60-minute soliloquy about his sales force and its struggle to adapt to a changing market. My participation consisted mainly of nodding, interjecting an occasional probe, and trying to take good notes. By the time he was done, George had answered every question in my sales call plan, I had checked off every one of my call actions, and we struck a deal on my largest sale to date.
If there is such a ratio as revenue per word spoken, it was easily the best sales call I’ve ever made. It flowed from start to finish, and the best part was, the sale was completely the customer’s idea! It reminded me of Napoleon’s advice to “Never interrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake”, except in this case it’s “Never interrupt the buyer when they are selling themselves.” By staying out of his way, I let George have my way.
That call was extreme, of course, but it is definitely worthwhile to strive to talk less and sell more. Good salespeople accomplish this by asking more questions; great salespeople do it by asking fewer but better questions, and by going beyond questions to achieve a similar flow.
How does achieving that flow help you sell? First, people like to talk about themselves so once you get them started, you may create a momentum of self-disclosure which can produce broader and deeper insight into their needs. Second, people like to feel important, so by being in charge of the conversation (or at least feeling like they’re in charge) can make them feel good. Finally, when they tell you the story you want them to hear, they own it, and they’re much more likely to stick to their commitments.
How to encourage conversational flow
Conversational flow doesn’t just happen; you can stimulate your customer’s willingness to talk by what you do before and during the call.
Before the call
Avoiding too many questions during the call does not mean skipping questions altogether during your preparation. The research and planning you do will help earn the customer’s trust without which they won’t open up. Besides, it’s the only way to know if the customer’s conversation is producing the answers you need. By knowing what you need from the conversation, you will have all these mental hooks on which to organize the incoming information.
It also does not mean that you should strive for a stream-of-consciousness type of flow, in which you get the customer to talk about anything that enters their mind. The most effective sales conversations have a particular structure—even if it’s not obvious. That flow is the SCR story structure: They begin by describing their situation, bringing out their conflicts, and arriving at a resolution.
During the call
There are two general ways to encourage the customer to take control of the conversation and run with it. First, you motivate them to talk and set the frame by carefully planning your call opening, and then you use following and reflecting skills to encourage and nudge the flow.
The first few minutes of the sales call are crucial to achieving conversational flow. Your goal is to get the customer eager to talk about what you want them to talk about. For this, you have three tools: value proposition, action, and agenda.
Your value proposition and action together deliver the lean communication imperative of ATQ: Answer the Question. In every meeting, the customer/prospect wants to know: “What do you want me to do, and why should I do it?” By being very upfront about it early, you dispel suspicion and jointly agree on the reason for the meeting. In the unlikely case you’re wrong, the customer will let you know immediately and you will have an opportunity to reset or pivot as necessary.
If the value proposition and action together set the destination, your written agenda is the road map that structures the conversation. In most cases, you’re going to be very explicit, even to the point of enumerating and explaining the agenda items and offering to add any issues they might have. I would estimate that a third of the calls I go on, I rarely need to use direct questions, because the customer sees the logic of the structure and willingly participates.
Even if the customer takes control and follows their own agenda, your effort hasn’t been wasted. When George began talking, I did not interrupt him; I simply slid my agenda across the table. He absent-mindedly straightened it out in front of him and kept talking—but within a couple of minutes, it became obvious that he was glancing at it and following the points I had prepared.
As the customer talks, you should strive to “get in front” of the conversation and simply nudge it in the right direction, using standard listening skills of encourages, probes and reflections. Try to be as non-disruptive as possible—don’t ask too many questions, and avoid leading questions that reveal an ulterior motive.
As Harry Truman said, it’s amazing what you can accomplish when you don’t care who gets the credit. When you achieve proper flow in a persuasive conversation, the other person will take credit for the idea, and that’s exactly where you want to be!
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In the last two podcasts, we’ve seen how questions are one of the power tools of persuasive communication. There’s probably only one other tool that has the power to do so much to persuade, and that is a good story.
A good story grabs and keeps attention; a good story makes you credible; a good story packs a lot of meaning into a simple package; a good story engages the heart as well as the head; and a good story sticks in the memory. That’s why it’s always great to have a story or two to reinforce your message.
So, what if you could marry the two, kind of like combining chocolate and peanut butter? That’s what I talk about in today’s podcast, how to use questions to get them to tell you the story you want them to hear.
You do that by asking questions that get them to articulate a story for why they should change. When you think about it, every decision to change has a story behind it. People don’t change for the sake of change; they change because they’ve told themselves a story. They’ve seen a conflict in their current situation that requires resolution. They envision the plot in their minds: if I do this, that will happen, and hopefully it will be a happy ending. No story, no change.
So, where do questions come in? You can use questions to draw out the story of change, and you can use questions to shape the story they do tell. It has to be their story, but you may be able to nudge it along in the direction of the ending you would like to see.
There are various forms of this approach. Teachers use the Socratic method in, clinical psychologists use Motivational Interviewing , salespeople use SPIN, are all designed to get listeners to reach their own conclusion that they must follow the course of action you’re selling. The general principle they all have in common is that rather than trying to motivate people to act for your reasons it is far better to draw out their own motivations. They do this by uncovering gaps between their current situation and an ideal state, and eliciting enough pain and tension that they feel compelled to act to close that gap, ideally with your plan, product, or idea.
Where have we all seen this before? Pretty much every time we’ve been to a movie. Every movie plot is essentially a variation of one narrative arc: situation, conflict, resolution. Think about it: the movie opens with a description of the situation, where we get to know the players and begin relating to them personally. Next an element of conflict is introduced, because without conflict there would be no reason to watch. If it’s an action movie, our heroes are faced with some danger; if it’s a romantic comedy, they meet a potential mate, but something is acting to keep them apart. As the movie goes on, the conflict grows to the point of crisis, where it’s hard to imagine it getting worse and equally hard to see how they will get out of it. But ultimately there’s a satisfactory ending.
Just as stories require conflict to make them work, selling—whether it’s a product or an idea—requires a need, one that is compelling enough for someone to take the risk and expense of buying into your solution.
But here’s the problem: if you tell your story to push the need on the buyer, you’re only increasing resistance and distrust because we all have built-in mental filters and barriers that resist persuasive messages. Anyone who has a small child knows that the surest way to get a certain behavior is to forbid it.
The best way around these filters is to make it their story, not yours. People love their own stories, in which they face a conflict that requires a resolution for a happy ending. When they are telling their story, they are actively engaged in creating the reality they want to see rather than passively or actively resisting what you tell them. The trick is to get the buyer to tell you their story: They are the heroes, they tell you their conflict, they feel their own pain, and they get excited about the potential happy ending, which just happens to be your solution.
How do you get them to tell the story? First, you establish the situation by asking questions about where they are today and where they expect or hope to go from here: how are they currently doing things, what are their goals and expectations for the future, what’s important to them personally? While you want to be reasonably open-ended with your questions to allow for learning something new, you can frame the conversation in the direction you want to go by choosing the topic to ask about.
What’s happening in this phase of the story? You’re learning, they’re opening up to you, and you’re steering the conversation in the direction you want.
You have to resist the temptation to jump straight to conflicts, because it may be too early. If you ask them about what problems they have before they are ready to talk about them, they can easily get defensive and close up. Most people won’t open up until some trust has been established, and letting them talk about themselves is an excellent way to develop trust.
As they talk about themselves and their situation, they’re almost sure to turn the conversation toward some of the conflicts they see, although sometimes you may have to ask about them explicitly. You can’t have a conflict discussion without what I call POCR chips, problems, opportunities, changes and risks. We all know to look for problems, which are known dissatisfactions with their situation, but there are several other areas that are also ripe for creating conflict: Opportunities may arise because a new technology now allows them to improve their processes in some way; changes happen all the time that they must respond to, such as their customers’ needs and preferences, competitive actions, new laws; and risks are problems that do not currently exist but might. Listen very carefully for words or phrases that signal problems, opportunities, changes and risks, and encourage them to expand on these when they come up in the conversation.
If they don’t introduce conflict into the conversation, you may need to help them a bit. The simplest way is just to ask them. How’s that going for you? How well is it working? Are you happy with the way things are going? What problems do you see? What areas would you like to improve? Ideally, what would you like to see?
These are fairly open-ended questions and in a best-case scenario the other person will completely open up and spill their guts about all the conflicts they see. But what if they don’t open up? Or what if none of the gaps they identified are something that you can help them with? You may need more targeted and more specific questions. Instead of, What changes are you having to adapt to?, you might ask, How are you adapting to the new antibiotics regulations? Are you concerned at all about supply reliability? Are you comfortable with your relative response times?
When they begin describing their challenges, the need is beginning to come out, but here’s the spot where too many sales are lost. It’s like a fisherman jerking the rod at the first nibble. As soon as the client describes a gap they try to stuff a solution into it, except the solution is too big for the gap. They need to make the gap larger, by getting the client to talk about the cost to them in business and ultimately personal terms. You say your process is too slow, so what? How does that affect your customer response times, and how does that affect your sales, and how does that affect you personally? Did you ever lose a customer because of it?
Don’t assume that they are feeling the pain just because they’re describing the issues. When you ask these questions, they won’t always tell you out loud how it affects their business, but at least they are thinking about it. Just like a good movie, you want to create a plausible crisis that they will feel compelled to find a way out of. This is where the “heart” part of the story really kicks in.
By this point in the story, they’re ready for the satisfactory ending. Your questions now switch to the positive resolution: How would speeding up the process impact your customer satisfaction ratings? What steps would you have to take to get it done by the first quarter? When they answer your questions, they are ready to hear your solution. And, when they hear it, it will be their own idea because it’s their own story, not yours.
